>> (Sharron Rush) I'm just going to do a real quick introduction. First of all, I want to say thanks to all of you for showing up on a Friday afternoon.
That was awfully kind, and uh… really appreciated, because We, uh… we often have these during the week, and just the way scheduling went this week, we decided We're gonna… we're gonna have to do it on Wednesday. I mean, on Friday, and we're, uh.
Really pleased to see so many folks So, if in person, so we're really glad to have you, and thanks for making the time for this. I'm particularly… oh yeah, I'm Sharon Rush, I'm Executive Director and Co-Founder of Knowbility.
I've been, uh, running this organization now, or it's been running me, for 25 years or so.
And, it's amazing to me, in some ways, that we are still here and still talking about accessibility, because, I certainly thought that Once the issue was raised and tech people understood the importance of including everyone, that this problem would be solved by all the tech geniuses out there, but I think one thing that happens is
Tech changes so quickly that the, uh, the accessibility aspect of it has sometimes a hard time keeping up with how quickly it's changing, and we have a wonderful person here to talk about just that. Natalie Patrice Tucker is one of the most experienced people in terms of the
Breadth of her experience. Around technology, disability, and accessibility. She's been… all the things. She's been a designer, a developer.
A program or an engineer, a team lead, uh, product owner.
See, she's just, really experienced the full spectrum, both of challenges and triumphs in when it comes to accessibility, so… I can't wait to have more conversation with her.
To hear more about her journey, and to thank her for being here. At the end of the The session today, we will ask you to provide us some feedback.
We'll do a little commercial about how to join our newsletter and be more involved with some of Knowbility's activities.
But once again, I really appreciate your being here. Thanks for your interest. Thanks for all you do.
Welcome, Natalie, and… I'm gonna let you tell the story of your, uh, your adventures this week, and, uh.
And take it away.
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Thank you, thank you so much. So, Mark, if you will make us sort of a stadium… oh, that's for… wow, I'm large. I'm extremely large. That's great.
How do y'all? My name is Natalie Patrice Tucker, and like Sharon said, I deeply appreciate you being here. You can do anything you want with your time, but you're taking it.
To know, get more access to information about how you can be better at and bring more of yourself to, inclusion and inclusive design and accessibility is delicious and delightful.
Ah, and I can't thank you enough. So, we're gonna have more of a less formal conversation today, because my… Uh, my slides got eaten by the dog, as it were, my laptop was stolen.
Um, and so I am… I've got… I'm gonna be talking… you threw… No notes, but it also… Um, I'm really looking forward to it being a conversation, so feel free to… stop me.
Uh, or raise a hand is even better. Um, and say that you'd like to be, uh, you want to ask a question or… Or you can put it in chat if you don't wanna… interrupt what I'm saying.
But the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you Um, so as I'll explain more.
As we get into the conversation, I've been doing this work.
Since the early 2000s. And sort of out a little bit more than 25 years.
And I… what have… there are a lot of things I would have loved to know.
When I… as I've been navigating my career. And so, I really… have been deeply, deeply impacted along the course of my… career by people who are willing to step up and ask… answer my questions.
Be a mentor for me you know, provide support and guidance.
And it's something that's deeply important to me about the way that I want to leave a legacy in this space. So, if anything comes up.
Um, that you want to, you know, sort of dive deeper into, and or… uh… relates to something that you were hoping you would get out of this conversation?
Feel free to, bring it up. And there'll be a little bit of space Um, there'll be some time at the end, also.
For us to, if, uh, if that's better. Um, so… Let's get us started.
I wanted to… I wanted to give… this room. Um… outline of my career, and if you are looking at it, it would look like, a windy road.
Or, a khipu. I don't know if any of you have heard about khipus.
But in, uh… In Central America, there was this incredible group of folks, around the 15th… century or so that… uh, you know, the Incas, who did not have a written language, but used a system of Textiles, ropes.
Uh, and knots. Not send string to communicate, various bits of information, and I love the idea of… this tactile… communication device, being able to… hallucinating, uh, the twists and turns, uh, of a particular weather, that they were using it to
To count family members. To account for gray to, uh… administer justice Uh, in, in their courts, all kinds of things. And they… Many of them were destroyed.
Uh, due to the Spaniards, disrespect for Incas… Incan ways, but… We still have several hundred of them, and we are not… Um, scientists are still working. Scientists and linguists and engineers are still working to understand exactly what, some of them say.
And so, I mentioned that because when I think about my career, I think about it as this… sort of… Textiles, strung… with bits of information.
And each little knot on a rope is an insight And together, it brings together… my… my career.
Um, so… My intention is that I would, you know… tell you how I've lived this life, as it were, and also Glean what we can, sort of mine the gold, that I've been able to… come away with, but also think about…
What's next? Um, and how we move forward, what… how would be a cause for that As well… So.
As a lot of… things. My great adventure started… as a… response to a heartache.
In 1999, I moved to DC, which is the non-profit capital of the world, from Central Virginia, where I was raised.
To… save the world. I had… I was ending a marriage, and I was deeply broken-hearted, and I was trying to figure out what I was gonna do with myself and my life.
And what I landed on was that I wanted to save the world. I wanted to make a difference.
So I moved to DC to be a political organizer. For a living wage campaign in Montgomery County.
And one… Early on, I realized that that the work… I wasn't well-suited to the work of being a political organizer.
Knocking on doors. Try to convince folks to take action, sign a… TICS petition called there.
Elected officials. To enact this change.
But, I also discovered coding. Because this… tiny nonprofit that I was working on.
There were 7 of us, all together.
Uh, had a database that we used for all of our important information about our donors, about our events.
About… you know, to contact folks to get them to our events and to our actions.
Um, but it was a mess, and trying to get reports, or even get in… mailing labels for… action postcard was a chore.
But I love… the puzzle of figuring it out, and so I taught myself SQL, And whipped… that bad boy into shape.
And one of the things that I got out of that was, hey.
Maybe this is how I can save the world. Maybe… maybe I can do this.
And that's one of the, sort of. Knots on the string of my kifu, if you will.
Which is that I… I knew that I… at that time, I was just trying to make a difference, and I didn't know exactly how I was gonna do it.
But I'm… I had tried… you know, doing things that I didn't care about, and… I could not bring myself to it.
So I knew that whatever it was that I was going to be able to do, it was going to have to engage me completely.
Um, but… It was… you know, and it was the early days of the internet, and so that was… infinitely more possible.
Um, than it is now. I decided that maybe I… could support nonprofits with uh, administration. So… building websites, building databases, uh, supporting volunteers, all of that.
And increasingly, the nonprofits that I was working for, and these are folks like, the Campaign for Labor Rights.
Um, the Washington office on Africa, the 50 years is enough campaign, and the Global AIDS Alliance, folks who had who were working with constituencies and… places… Where there might be slower internet access, older browsers. Some of them were…
Uh, overseas. Some of them were in rural places, but the… the fruit line was that we don't need bells and whistles, we need the information to get there and get there well, and get there quickly.
Um, and this was during this… during the… 2000, 2001.
And the internet was, like, the wild, wild west, baby. Um, it… some of you may recall the browser wars.
That was the good part, there were one-by-one pixel GIFs, there were marquee scroll fonts.
You know, there was geocities, and MySpace. All kinds of interesting ways of… have a… You know, like having a presence to millions of people on the world, and we were… in a way, kind of battling it out about what that…
What it looked like and what that would get to feel like. And I felt like I was on the edge of something, so… One of the ways I taught myself to build websites for these nonprofits I was working on
Was… by reading… every single word of the specifications.
For XHTML, and then HTML, CSS, EmmaScript, JavaScript. I fell in love with the standards.
Um, the elegance of it, the thoughtfulness of it, the work that went into communicating, the possibilities that… that it may what it looked like it was making possible. So there was this… There's a bit of a divide, where, there were folks who were, you know, about pushing the edges of what was possible on the internet
And there were folks like me who were really interested in how do we get the internet to be a force for pulling us together as… As humanity, how do we ensure that more and more of us get the benefits of what's possible, so…
At that time, there was a lot of conversation around what was called semantic web, and… I discovered the WCAG guidelines, because I was deep in You know, in the W3C's business, and this was WCAG 1.0 at the time.
And it… it was… it was a hair-on-fire moment. It was, like, one of those things. I read it on 1,096 pages.
Event, uh, not a 1.0, but over time, I've read all, you know, printed out.
You know, in regular font. I… I… discovering that, you know… a group of kind, thoughtful people.
Had, done the hard labor of devising a standard for ensuring that everyone got included in the conversation.
In civic life, that's where I was. I had found my thing. I… so… Um, between 2000 and 2003, I got to build these websites, learn about WCAG, you know, build my skill.
And then about… 2005… there was, uh… the Department of Health and Human Services.
I went looking for a… web developer who… knew what WCAG 1.0 was, and knew how to implement it.
Um, there have been some… some, uh, lawsuits.
And… some demand action around the accessibility of their websites, and Um, I always say that if it weren't for the National Federation for the Blind, I would not have a career.
They made it possible for me to, go into the federal government and build Uh, I built a portal supporting folks who were, uh.
Transitioning out of houselessness, homelessness, at the time.
Um, it says resources exchange. And this is another thing. This is another one of those knots.
While I knew I was making a difference, one of the things that I… recognized was that working in the federal government was not… It did not feel… like, it would allow me to do what I wanted to do.
I felt constrained by the pace. And also… You know, sort of the inherent hierarchical the rules and things that are just… it didn't make a lot of sense.
3, and you'll see this. Point them out earlier, or later, but, you know, one of those nuggets, I realized that Not only did I want to do something that made a difference, obviously, not only did I have to do something that I was going to be engaged in.
But I needed to get paid to play. If you will. I needed to… uh, like, have my work.
Because, you know, like, I'm still training myself. I'm still learning.
I am learning, I am implementing, I am figuring it out.
As I go, and that's what's most exciting to me. And so, the opportunity to… grow and learn and contribute had to be there, so… and the way I thought about it was getting… getting paid to play.
Um, so that was a must-have, right? That I knew about myself, so… I left the federal government, and I… reached out to This man who I had… I had really a bit of a stalker, you know? I'd been reading his blog, and I'm paying attention to what he was saying, and learning a lot from him from afar.
But, eventually, I just reached out and I said, his name is Tom Babat, but Levinsky, he had a consultancy called Even Grounds that did accessibility consult… digital accessibility consulting and training.
Um, and he had an incredible blog, and… I reached out and I said, I have loved to work.
If there's any way I can be of service, please let me know. I would love to learn more. In particular.
I don't know, you know, like, I… I… I'm lost in the weeds when it comes to screen readers.
Um, and to, uh, Tom is blind. And he was like, ah, sure, you know.
I'm sure he thought it was the same, but he became my first mentor.
Taught me a lot, not only about like, working with… so many different kinds of people, because I… when I was supporting and doing trainings and audits and remediation and that sort of thing, over the course of a few years, but…
You know, learning, diplomacy, and how to talk to various levels of folks, have folks hear you. And that's when I began to realize that Um, accessible, you know, yes, there's the exciting, interesting technical bits.
But accessibility is as much an art as a science. It's about causing the human relationships that are gonna make it possible to build better and better products.
And so, you know, it also opened up this new, challenging world where, you know, like I thought it was gonna be me, and the code, and, you know, I mean, I was… Literally going to build an army of developers.
Um, and we were gonna… everybody was gonna be trained, everybody was gonna know what to do.
And… you know, bada-big, bada-bang, Bob's your uncle.
Uh, everybody can, uh, you know, like, we have this… Imagine what's gonna be possible when everybody can contribute to the conversation.
Is what I was, you know, like, where I was going with it. But then I came to find out that, oh.
You know, like, it's not just the engineers, the designers need to understand how to talk to the engineers.
I need to be able to talk to… to the designers in their language.
And I… you know, to be honest with you, I have always been deeply intimidated by My folks were visual thinkers, who understand color and con… composition, and I always thought it was, like, some mucci art, and… like, I love art.
I love it, and thinking of myself as an artist or a designer.
Never, so shall meet. So I felt really intimidated. But, you know, like… One of the things that I got… early on, is that… Accessibility is as much about… the hearts and minds, as it is about Uh, the actual technical…
Challenges of building things. And the technical challenges are great. Don't get me wrong, they're… There are a lot of them, and…
There are… there are… different magnitudes of them in the ways that they inter… between different… individual contributors between different, uh, roles, between different parts of the business. It's all very intricate.
Um, so it's not just, you know, an edict where you say.
Thou must do this, and suddenly, you know, all these things.
Come to me. Just because I have… you know, you know, increasingly more experience.
And the expert in this thing doesn't make me, uh… the… it doesn't… didn't necessarily make me… the… uh… Buckstopper, if you will.
Okay. So… when I… I worked with Tom for a few years.
And it was magnificent and marvelous. And then, time pivoted and got to do some incredible work with the Hadley School of Uh, for the blind, and I continued consulting.
Um, opened my own consultancy, but this… This was, uh, you know, about 2015, 2006, 2007, And, there were a whole lot of… uh, full-time accessibility-focused roles. I knew what I wanted to do. There was still so much I needed to learn, there was still so much
I thought I could do… I did not want to… become a generalist. Um, and… I… so I… you know, what that meant was that I needed to follow the work. So I lived in DC, and then I moved to New York, and then I lived in Connecticut. I did work…
For the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Uh, you know, building workers' compensation and insurance systems. I did… I built a… a course that taught Document authors at the Hartford how to remediate 200… more than 200, uh, documents.
Um, and create accessible documents. Um, in the way… I just… I just went wherever the work was.
Um, and… and then… A funny thing happened.
Wcag 2.0. Happened, and while conversations about WCAG 2.0 were in the works as early as 2001. It didn't really come down the pike.
And sort of… get rubber to the ground until… 2000… about 2007, 2008.
When all of a sudden. Just like dominoes falling into place.
Um, the international rules around uh, accessibility, the national rules around accessibility, like, uh, Section 508, and state and local laws started harmonizing around WCAG 2.0.
Level double, uh, AA as the standard. For accessing. And I had been working, in this space, I have been working, uh, with WCAG for.
Quite some time at that point, and so that meant that I went from being a sort of a team lead, an individual contributor.
Developer. To leading… a program of work.
Um, so I got I got to build an ACA portals.
On behalf of Accenture Software. In advance of the… rollout of Obamacare.
And, uh… What that meant was that we had several engineering teams building portal for several states. I think we were… work new on 5 different states. We were… we were… managing that… Uh, the process of building, designing, developing, and ensuring that not only
The… were the… was… that there was testing, and that we were… thinking about accessibility all along the way, and that the risks were… identified and… accounted for, and the trade-offs were… documented and accounted for. And finally, that we were able to produce
Vpats and, and, uh… other documentation about our work.
Um, that process, uh, lasted for a couple of years. And by that time, you know, like.
It seems almost like… Overnight, but of course not really, so… but overnight, digital accessibility was having its heyday. More and more.
Folks were understood about WCAG, we're referencing WCAG people who, from… far, far, far and wide.
So, where… I… you know, like, I… had been able to sort of keep tabs on, and learn from.
And, folk… Uh, here and there, over the big… the beginning of my career.
By that time, there were folks all over the place, all over the world, who were, learning about digital accessibility and becoming, experts.
And, uh, talking about their expertise in particular ways. It was really… it has been brilliant and delicious.
Um, and… One of the things that I recognized is that… You know, like, I still very much want I really want to be doing the work. I want to see those products.
Um, come out that make a difference. I love it when that gets to happen. So, getting to, you know, most recently.
And 20… 21, you know, sort of moving along the structuring, in between that time between, you know, 2008 when… or 2010-11, When, uh, Obamacare rolled out, and when I went to… work with Spotify, I got to work with Benette.
Um, I got to work with Microsoft, building an accessible program for bringing Cortana.
And I did a bunch of… I worked… I built an accessory program at Dropbox, just extraordinary, extraordinary work.
And so, in, you know… Uh, 2021, I had the honor and privilege of being asked to support accessibility at Spotify.
And… This was an organization that had had, you know, had grassroots commitment to accessibility, um, but we're looking to formalize it.
Um, when I walked in and built a team, and it was extraordinary.
And one of the things about that experience is that sometimes it takes a long time to see, the fruits of your labor.
If you will. And, you know, that has showed up, in the past, but in… And a particularly gratifying way, the ways that… that… me and my team were able to influence and contribute to… uh, Spotify product, and in particular.
Spotify wrapped, ensuring that it was successful, and engaging in delightful.
Um, and that considerations for people working with… with, uh, disability to consider from the start was extraordinary, because the first year that I was there, we sort of came at the end, found a bunch of bugs.
We will only be able to, you know, fix a few of them, but by the last year that I was There, we were there at the beginning, in the design phase, we were, you know, part of the secret meetings about what Spotify Rock was going to look like.
Um, and it was… it was an extraordinary sea change that required, building and enforcing relationships.
And, you know, sort of having… taking the long… the long view.
Okay… Yes, and so… One of the things that has made it possible for me to go from, as I tell people.
Um, sometimes… my mother, for quite some time, I think my mother thought that I, you know, like, worked as a front for terrorist activity.
You know, I would try to explain what I did, and why, you know, I was passionate about it.
And nobody… you know, nobody did what I did, it didn't make a lot of sense, and…
But… Especially in the beginning and all along.
My journey. I couldn't have done it without… folks in the field.
Like, share, like… My dear friend Laur Laura Samuels, like Tom Babiskin, who I mentioned.
Um, who were willing to… sort of take me on, uh, and, you know, answer my… what I thought was super questions, and… support me both socially and professionally. Well, so one of the things that happened during those, you know, sort of middle years that I glossed over.
Was, while I got… while I was doing this incredible work redesigning the bookshare.
Portal, helping to redesign the Bookshare portal. Which makes print resources available to print-disabled folks, particularly those who are lines and low vision, and those with certain kinds of cognitive differences.
Um, we were redesigning the portal for this tool. And I have to do… I was doing… gonna be doing some user research. I needed to… ensure that I was including considerations for people with, cognitive differences, and I felt like I was a little…
Uh, week around that, so I… started doing some research, and I was… And I just… I was doing research, and I… I had an epiphany, and oh my gosh, that completely… changed my life. When I was back… when I realized…
That, oh my goodness. It is very likely, very possible, could it be, oh my god, no, not me, I think I'm autistic, so I was 35, you know, this is… you know, 2015 to 17, something like that. And I was
On the one hand, like, seeing it, I was like. As I'm reading this, as I'm incorporating the work, as I'm doing the user research, as I'm finding myself in the work, and being able to talk about my life.
You know, in ways that had never been able to before. I was also scared out of my wits, right? I had been doing this work for a long time at that point, and I did not know that I was doing it for myself, and I…
Did not want anyone to think that I was, like, just… Um, making it up. And I… I didn't care. I… I, you know, getting… Building a community with other Black women who are autistic, and, um.
There was a version in other ways, like, revolutionized my life, and… And so that, you know, like, it wasn't until… just a few years ago that I even bothered to get any kind of formal, you know.
Confirmation, if you will and… You know, by that time, you know, like, I had all of this language, and, you know, like.
I was doing the work for me, as well as for the, you know, people I cared about in the world in my life, and for the lucky girls that I had set out for myself.
And so, of course, this is a truism across the board.
With accessibility, but… You know, one of the… one of those, uh… Knott's is what you do for another, you do for yourself, right?
Um, in the same way that I didn't realize that I was helping myself.
My commitment made it possible for me to make such a huge difference for myself and the world.
>> (Sharron Rush) Hey, Natalie, this is Sharon. I've tried to find out how to raise my hand, and
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Are people trying to raise their hand and not being able to?
I'm not checking… Okay, good. Did you wanna… did you wanna, step in?
Let's see…
No, I wanted to ask a different question right now, Mark.
>> (Mark Boyden) Looks like she's muted herself again. Um… So that was from Sharon. Uh, it says, given what you said about as much An artist… Okay.
>> (Sharron Rush) I wanted to ask.
>> (Mark Boyden) Yeah, sure, thank you.
>> (Sharron Rush) Given… given what you said about your diagnosis, about the fact that You, you know, you got this diagnosis, and you talked about, oh, I don't want people to think I'm doing it just for myself, or whatever, which I get that. It makes… it makes some sense, but
I wondered if you found that it had any… impact on your approach to the work itself.
Did it change the way you approach doing the work, or did you have the same you know, the same passion and the same dedication, because one of the things I always think about Accessibility work is that it's not disability-specific, right?
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Absolutely. I mean, of course, knowing that I was, you know, like, I was inside of the conversation.
You know, uh, but I think, ultimately, we all are. We always are. Maybe not right now.
>> (Sharron Rush) Yeah.
You know, maybe only for a moment, and then that? But ultimately, we all are… but… But what it did do was help me understand the parts of my work.
Which have always been harder for me. Right? So… you know, office politics, and… certain kinds of…
Ways of communicating and passive-aggressiveness, and learning… learning, like, really… Like, I did deep dive… intensive work around, communication. I mean, I've always… I've always loved words and language.
Principally because it's so exciting to me when things… when I can make sense of things when you know, when I've been categorized things, when I… I can begin to synthesize ways you know, things from… you know, bringing on… so all of that… all of that, you know, like, I think it is a function and a, uh, you know, sort of a prize for having the kind of brain that I have.
But I didn't realize until, you know, I was like, the whole reason I am, you know, I am in this field is because the specifications were my special interests.
Um, and, you know, like, I would never have had words for it.
Um, yeah, or a…
>> (Sharron Rush) Well, I wonder also, given that we only have, 15 minutes… is that right, Mark? We go for an hour?
>> (Mark Boyden) Yes.
>> (Sharron Rush) Because I know that, that… You've always… in the conversations we've had previously, you've always told me that, uh.
That mentoring was such an important thing to you, and I imagine that people who are attending today who came because of the things we talked about that we were going to cover would be very interested in ways that you found your mentors, because I think that's one of the challenges
Especially after COVID, people are more distributed. There aren't those kinds of… workplace things that are as steady. I mean, even people who are back in the office are usually back for just maybe part-time, couple days a week, so where do you go to find your mentors, and how do you
How do you make those connections that help you build a career?
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) So great… It does take a bit of boldness.
To reach out to folks who you may only have a parasocial relationship with.
Via social media, or seeing lectures to say, hey, you're doing incredible work.
Are the ways I can be of service to you? Can I… Take a moment of your time for… to ask you some questions.
And, another thing… Uh, so I… People will reach out to me all the time.
On LinkedIn, just send a message and say, basically, can I take you for a coffee?
Um, can I have, you know, 15 minutes, 30 minutes of your time?
Um, and I… it is an honor and a privilege to do that when and where I can.
Um, and I try to as often as I can, because I know the courage it takes And also, more and more.
Folks are, uh… working with other people, you're not an island of one, so that's what made it possible for me to connect with uh, Lauren, we ended up working on at Microsoft together, and I didn't know… Laura, before that, uh…
Or… I wouldn't… I don't know that I would've met you if I hadn't met.
Um, Lori, in that way, because Lori introduced me to you, and then… Although I had known about, you know, Knowbility's work for a long time, I didn't know you.
Nobody ever told me that!
>> (Sharron Rush) You know, actually… I… I was your fangirl before, Lori. I asked Lori to introduce us because I had I had seen… yeah, yeah, I had… no, I never told you that before, but… I, uh, I saw you do, uh, it was a Colorado group that were… it was you and Reginae Gilbert and someone else.
And, I just thought, wow, this woman is so passionate about what she does, and then when Lori mentioned your name, I said, oh, you know Natalie?
Could you introduce me to her? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think that's one of the things that That brings people to this to this field is that sense that I want to do more than just do tech, right?
Tech is great, and it's exciting, and it's new, and it builds the future world.
But that human element that is in accessibility, I think, is one of the things that really brings people to it, and to connect through that… that passion for doing tech for good in some way, I think is one of the things that brings people together, and I totally support what you said about finding mentors, being bold.
Finding people like I did, you know, I saw you on that podcast, or whatever it was, that webinar.
And then when I heard your name come by, I said, could you introduce me to her? And I think that's a really good thing. Also, there are programs, you know, like, like volunteer… you can volunteer for different tech, uh, programs, maybe at the IAAP or at Knowbility, or
Um, different, uh… different nonprofits that have a tech… been a tech. You mentioned Benetech.
Yeah, absolutely.
You volunteer there, and you find… you find other people who are interested, too, in terms of of getting, uh, getting connected in that way. But since we only have a few minutes, I wondered if any others in the… in the group had questions, or
But that was really just to bring you in. It's all the same.
Wanted to, uh, ask anything of Natalie. I know we mentioned that we were going to talk a little bit about AI today, too Which we haven't…
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) The long and short of the AI is that there's a lot of really fun stuff happening. I'm working, actually, with a startup That's doing… as an… AI play around an accessibility play… platform, which is really exciting, but the long and short of it is that, you know.
There will always be East to get to. You'll never be able to take the human… humanity out of accessibility work. We need more and more eyes.
And, we can't just leave it to our robot… robot overlords, as Carl Gross.
So… You know, so… but yeah, and we can talk… I can talk at infinity about all that stuff anytime
>> (Mark Boyden) Natalie, we do have a… I'm not sure exactly how to pronounce this… Melito, who would like to answer a question Or ask a question?
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Are you able to take them off mute? Okay.
>> (Mark Boyden) I've asked them to unmute.
Yep. Yep, we're hearing.
Hey!
>> (Attendee) Hello? Oh, yes, hi, my name is Liam Miletto. First of all, thank you for everything that you are doing for the community.
So, um, I have a Bachelor in Psychology and computer science, and I'm a certified trusted tester.
So my question is, uh, what will be the best option for me to have either an apprenticeship or internship or an entry-level job in digital accessibility.
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Okay, so… to… I mean, there are a couple ways to think about it. I advise folks to find what's exciting to you?
It's a huge world, there's lots of moving bits and pieces.
Um, what, what folks are looking for today may not be the same thing that's being looked for In several years, so it's good if you, rather than, chasing what works, is that you get clear about what most interests you, what you most…
Engaged in learning about, and dive in deep, and or wide, depending on where you see… you want to just see yourself go.
Now, I did have a little bit of trouble hearing you towards the end, so I want to make sure I answered your question.
Um, you know, like, in full. Can you… yeah.
>> (Attendee) All right. Yeah, I am, uh, certified.
Yep, yep. Uh huh.
Trusted tester for web accessibility testing. So, um, and I'm really looking for an apprenticeship or internship or entry-level job.
Have a patient to contribute to the Digital Accessibility Improvement.
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Have you… have you considered… working with one of the consultancies. Sometimes one of the larger consultancy… There's… there are accessibility consultancies, but there are also, you know, folks like, you know, Tata and HCL and, um… you know, KPMG, who…
We're Deloitte.
Yes, exactly. Accenture, Deloitte, all those sorts. Um, and I often tell people, especially right now, with everything that's going on.
Um, it's gonna take a little gorilla warfare, if you will.
Um, to make the kind of difference that we… I'm committed to make. So maybe accessibility isn't… front and center in your job title.
Maybe it's a… you continue to be… you work to be a senior tester who can do anything well, and you have the specialization in access… Do you know? So, you know, you may have to… You may have to…
Pivot and shift? In order to continue to… do what you want to do while building a skill and remaining interested and engaged.
>> (Attendee) So, do you have any company, or do you help, or do you know any community that can help?
People get into that
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Quite honestly… Are you willing to look me up on LinkedIn? Can I share my LinkedIn information with you, and then I can, like, put your on… you know, the long and short of it is that for… Consultancies are always…
Are often, looking to… have testers.
Especially. You know, like, especially folks with… 1, 3, 2, 3, 4 years of experience.
It's a great way to get some experience and… Like, so, reaching out to Level Access, or DQ, or Knowbility, or, you know, how they scroll through the blog, you know.
Depending on where you are, there are… there are, you know, even smaller aphids.
Carl Grove's outfit. Um, it was her and for… I don't know if they're hiring for testers, but they're hiring for engineers.
>> (Sharron Rush) You know, Natalie, I think right now might be a really good time for me to do a real quick commercial for our Accessibility Internet Rally, because Every year, Knowbility does an accessible web design contest, and we're, right now, we're recruiting people for this year's event. It happens toward
Closer toward the end of the year, but we are actively recruiting, and… and… Basically, what we do is we recruit people who are designers, developers, testers.
We put them on teams, and we have them design an accessible website for a non-profit organization.
And then we judge the work that's been done for accessibility.
And we have hundreds of people who volunteer. It's a very strong and joyful community collaboration.
And it runs for weeks and weeks, so you get to meet new people, or work with a team of people you already know.
On an accessibility project. And, so if you go to Knowbility.org.
And, I think it's the main banner right now, we think.
Come join AIR 2025! It's a… but it's a really great way to get started, and I can tell you.
I could name dozens of people who got started in a career by being on an AIR team, meeting other people, and then either getting a job, or becoming a consultant, or becoming a judge and a tester.
So it's a really, really great way to, uh… so that, that just was a happy segue way asking about a community of people, because That's exactly what the Accessibility Internet Rally program does, so I would encourage Anyone who's looking to break into a new career here to, uh.
To check that out, because it's a… it's a great opportunity, and… and it's a lot of fun, and it approaches accessibility from the point of view of creative challenge rather than legal mandates, so…
>> (Mark Boyden) Thank you, Sharon. And I did put the link in the chat, along with the LinkedIn link for Natalie. We have another question that came through here. It says, do you have any thoughts about the recently published Forbes Accessibility 100.
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) I… I have lots of thoughts. I have, you know, like, friends and colleagues who are on the list, and it… it makes me excited to see the hard work, blood, sweat, and tears.
Um, rewarded? Of course, you know.
There's… there are folks… who are, you know, obvious omissions.
Um, and that's no fun to see. But, you know, if there's only 100 folk, you know, like, I wonder what the, you know, like, how that whole process went down.
And, you know, I'm just excited that there's another way to keep the conversation front and center.
Especially when there are a lot of conversations for, you know, making it quieter, even though there are you know, more and more reasons why.
We should be talking about inclusion, why we should be, you know.
Upfront about those things, but… I love… I love the visibility that it's bringing to the work.
And the lives and the commitments of so many folks.
And that is an introduction to a lot of folks, that this is even happening. I had a recruiter the other day say to me.
I had no idea this was the thing that you could do I was like, yeah. Yeah.
Uh, but yeah, so… There's always going to be more internet than there is accessibility.
Right?
>> (Sharron Rush) Natalie, it's 4 o'clock, or just a couple minutes until, uh, I think we have time maybe for one more question, but before we take that.
I just want to thank you again. You're so generous with your time, your talents.
Your skills, it's been, uh… Really great to hear about your… your adventures through the years, and the fact that you are still Uh, even in this political climate, that you are still dedicated and doing this work because
Gosh, it's so important. Mark, are there any other questions?
>> (Mark Boyden) We do have another one here. With accessibility being such a broad field, do you have tips on finding your niche or specialties?
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Um, dibble and dabble. Find a little bit of everything. Most recently, I've become delighted and intrigued and excited about design systems. I got to work with a little bit at Dropbox, a lot more.
Uh, uh, with Spotify, and now I've got a bit of a bug.
So, you know. Look and see what other folks are doing… you know, learn… new things, try and fail.
You know, those are great ways to, you know, like… and you don't necessarily have to have a niche, right? You could be a product manager.
And in stealth mode, you are an accessibility guide. Do you know, like, I know folks like that.
You know, whose job… their job title says nothing about them as an accessibility professional, but they are killing it.
Making it happen. So… You get to say.
>> (Sharron Rush) Once again, thank you. Thanks to all of you for being here with us on a Friday afternoon, and uh… Thanks, Mark, for your good… stewardship, and Natalie, for sharing your wisdom.
>>(Natalie Patrice Tucker) My pleasure. Thank you so much.
>> (Mark Boyden) Thanks for all of you for being here. Well, Sharon went over the Accessibility Internet Rally, but there is more information at knowability.org slash air.
We are looking for people who are web developers and anything along that line from project management, UX design, as well as what we call our clients, our nonprofits and non-governmental organizations.
Artists and musicians. Everybody wins out of this because they get to learn a lot about accessibility throughout the program.
Which actually kicks off Uh, September 19th, but we're recruiting right now.
So you can get more information on that at Knowbility.org slash air.
You can sign up for our newsletter at Knowbility.org slash subscribe to stay in the know.
Follow us on social media, or you can email us at events at Knowbility.org.
Finally, if you would take a moment and give us a little bit of feedback about today's session.
In this program, we greatly appreciate it. There's a QR code on the screen.
Or you can go to Knowbility.org slash betasurvey, that's B-A-D-A survey.
Thanks again for being here, we truly appreciate it. We'll have another one to announce for next month, very soon.
>> (Natalie Patrice Tucker) Thank you all. Right.
Thank you.
>> (Sharron Rush) Thanks, everyone! Bye!
Listen, you know, like, I…
Yeah, Patricia, thank you again so much. Really appreciate it, and you know, I'm sorry to hear about your laptop getting stolen, but uh… We've been here telling people about your career and helping them get energized about what they can do in this as well.
I love it, and I'm hoping that folks will, you know, take something from it, and I look forward to, like, working with y'all again.
Have a great day, I'm gonna let you go. Let me know if you need anything from me in post-production or anything, and… Okay.
I think it'll be good, but I'll let you know when it's available.
Okay, okay, thanks. Okay, bye.
Oh, thank you.