Mark Boyden: That minute has passed, so we're gonna go ahead and get started.
Welcome to Be a Digital Ally. Today's edition is the European Accessibility Act is here. What next?
I'm Mark Boyden, I am the IT cowboy for… Knowbility. I've been here about five and a half years, and I'm happy to be a part of this.
We invite you into our Be A Digital Ally series. It's a monthly series where we cover the basic skills and principles behind accessible digital design.
And that's to make digital content accessible to people with disabilities.
Our audience is you, our content creators of any skill level, and those newer to accessibility.
Why didn't that change? There we go. So… We're glad to be a part of your accessibility journey within this framework of our meetings. We ask that everybody create the inclusive and accessible spaces that we like to have, so be kind, polite, and respectful to everyone.
And we will work to ensure accessibility throughout this. Presentation. Knowbility was founded in 1999.
And I actually volunteered real early in the AIR program that we'll talk about in a little bit.
We're a 501c3… situated here in Austin, Texas, but work with people around the globe, and our mission is to create an inclusive digital world for people with disabilities.
So, we do that through our community programs. Air is our Accessible Internet Accessibility Internet Rally, which we're just moving into that season right now. We bring together.
Nonprofits who need websites, and work with web developers who want to learn how to build accessible websites, and we've put them together in a friendly competition. We'll talk more about that a little bit later.
Xsu is our annual conference that happens in May. Brings together people from around the globe to trade.
Information about how to make. Content accessible.
Accessworks is a program where we bring. People with disabilities to do live user testing. They get paid a real wage, and it helps people in.
Organizations make their websites and their smart apps. More accessible. We also work in the K-12 world, uh, helping.
Schools and universities make their content accessible, and. To make their classes, uh, teach accessibility better.
And then, of course, this program, be a digital ally. Now, we fund those services through donations from people like you.
And we also have a few services that we offer to people who need them. So we can do accessibility testing and auditing, websites and smart apps.
We can work with teams to build. Accessibility teams and capability within their program through our leadership and strategic consulting.
Through our training programs, we've already talked about AccessWorks, but it's also an area that helps fund us, and then we also have accessibility help desks, where.
Teams can come to us. Ad hoc and ask questions about, uh, helping build their accessibility programs.
During this program, we'll ask that you keep your questions until the end. However, we do have the Q&A.
So, at the bottom of your screen, you'll have a button for Q&A. It will open up the Q&A window, and you can go ahead and type it in there.
And you can ask anonymously if you want. When we get there, we'll ask if you'd like to ask in person. You'll be able to raise your hand.
Which is also found on the panel items under React. And you can also type it in the chat at any time, and I'll try and keep track of all that.
So I'd like to turn it over now to Sharon Rush, who will introduce our friend and take it away.
Sharron Rush: Thank you, Mark, and thank you, all of you, for being here.
Uh, this morning, as it will. This morning for me. This afternoon for Susanna, I'm Sharon Rush, I'm the Executive Director and Co-Founder of Knowbility.
And I could not be more pleased. Uh, to introduce our guest today.
Susanna Lauren is a, uh, she's the chair of the Funko Foundation, which is a European research and innovation center.
They've, uh, for years, she's been a thought leader in the field of digital accessibility.
Inclusion, e-government. One of the reasons I'm so excited about having her.
Here with us today is that she chairs the Joint Technical Body on e-accessibility.
And that group is responsible for the development and update of the EN301549, which.
Reflects conformance of the Web Accessibility Directive, the European Accessibility Act.
And so she is a true… true advocate and expert in this field. She's internationally acknowledged.
And, uh, besides that, she is a darn good person. She, uh… uh, is a horsewoman and a… uh… yacht aficionado, right? You sail boats, too, don't you, Susanna?
And she's just a great person and a great source of… information, uh… about this, because she's been an advocate for years and years, and a very successful one.
And that's one of the things I really want to talk to her about today, so… Welcome, Susanna. I'm so glad you're here.
Susanna Laurin: Thank you very much.
Sharron Rush: She's, uh… She's really… Susanna is… well, I should talk to you now, now that I've introduced you. You are on vacation, yeah?
Susanna Laurin: Uh, yes, this is, uh, this is a wooden boat from 1937, where we are spending our time outside the, um, of Stockholm, Sweden. So, Sweden is not Switzerland, that's the.
Helps things with the cows in the Alps, so Sweden is up in the north, and we have a beautiful archipelago outside of the capital.
With 25,000 islands where we sail around most of the summer, because.
One thing Europeans do better than the US is that we actually have vacation.
So, I'm… I'm in an on a long vacation, as every summer. I do not travel anywhere else. If I can't go there with a boat, then I don't travel in the summer.
Sharron Rush: That's wonderful, and uh, yeah, that's one of the many things we're going to learn from you today. So, to take vacation more seriously.
Susanna Laurin: Yeah, let's talk about that.
Sharron Rush: So, um, maybe you could start by telling us a little bit about.
The history of the European Accessibility Act, like, it's… it's kind of the culmination of a… number of, of, uh, initiatives, right? Starting with the Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities at the UN.
Uh, there was a web accessibility directive a few years ago, and you were, uh… you were very active and very influential in getting those things approved and passed and accepted.
So, can you tell us a little bit about that history, and how it, uh… how it all came to be, and how you managed to get it done.
Susanna Laurin: Well, um, there's a lot of people behind these laws, and I'm just one out of many, so it's not like I made it… made it happen. That is far from… from correct.
But the EU policies and legislation, they all own accessibility and disability, um, matters, all.
Come from the… are based on the UNCRPD. Not only have all the member states ratified the UNCRPD, but the EU as a organization, as a union, has ratified the UNCRPD, and that is… I think it's… it was at least the first organization of that kind who did that, and I think it's still the only one.
So that is kind of a big thing, and that's the basis of all accessibility and disability policies in the EU.
And based on the UNCRPD. The European Commission creates strategies, so disability strategies and digital strategies, for, uh, now the.
Kind of the keyword is a union of equality for these 5 years, and then there will be some other fancy words for 5 years.
But within those strategies, there is funding for research funding and legislation and other activities and kind of flagship initiatives and.
And policy work. So. In the, uh, during my long time being in accessibility field, I… I must say that.
It took a while before I realized that this would actually happen. I mean, I've been very much involved for 25 years, but I still… I'm still kind of.
Pinching my arm, are we… is this happening now? Because it went very fast. First, nothing happened, and then everything really got going.
And it was actually first the procurement directive, so public sector procurement of accessibility, that directive changed.
And when that up… that… it regularly changes or becomes reviewed and updated.
Updated, and when that latest update happened, it was adding accessibility as a requirement, so it went from.
When possible, accessibility should be taken into account into when the procured is going to be used by humans.
It actually says natural persons, but it means… it means humans. Then, the, um, accessibility or design for all… for people with disabilities shall be taken into account, so it changed to shell.
Ah! That is a big thing.
That is a big thing. Yeah, and then, uh, the web accessibility directive entered into force, um.
It was decided or passed in 16 and entered into force in 18, and actually the first kind of grace period ended in 19.
So then we have the websites and apps for public sector websites, and that is a big chunk of websites in all of the EU.
And also, what is called bodies governed by public law. So everything, kind of, if you see the public sector, the government websites as a kind of the hub, and then there is a lot… large gray zone outside of that, that are.
Bodies governed by public law. So even if they are not for-profit or private, if they are funded by, for a majority funded by and also led by, or managed by.
Government or government agencies, then they are also covered by the directive. So it's actually quite, quite big.
Even if it's only public sector and only websites and apps.
Yeah.
And then in 2019, um, the European Accessibility Act entered into force, and we have now had a long period of transposition.
Which means that EU legislation needs to be transposed into the member states, so they can either create.
New nose, or they can update existing laws to. Um, to comply with the new EU legislation.
And that takes a while, of course, and then there is also an implementation period, so now in June of this year, the Accessibility Act.
Finally, it's applicable in all member states. Um, but the proposal for this.
Well…
This act came already in 2015. So that's how long it takes. The European Commission makes a legal proposal, and then the Parliament and the Council, so what is called the Trilogue.
They then negotiate and discuss this. 4 years, and this took 4 years for moving from that proposal to the actual.
Passing of the law. And then it takes time to transpose, and then we have the grace periods, and so on. So, I mean, legislation.
It takes a long time, but with these three laws now passed in.
Rather short time period, uh, I'm kind of fascinating that we have been.
Moving from a completely fragmented and scattered. Legal universe here, or kind of a map where some countries had laws and some didn't, and we had different standards and so on, and now everything is harmonized, so… I'm quite impressed by the work that has been done by many people, and I'm happy… if I've been contributing a bit, then I'm happy about that as well.
Sharron Rush: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Woven… so it sounds like advocacy had a very strong role in all of this, that advocacy was critically important to getting the… the… motivation for this legislation to pass. It sounds like, you know, there were a lot of bureaucratic delays and all, but.
Through it all, there was… there was active engagement and advocacy going on, and.
Susanna Laurin: Yes.
Sharron Rush: You know, just in context, I'm thinking about what we can learn in the United States, because.
People are really discouraged right now, because the rights of people with disabilities in the United States seem to be really under assault.
And advocates can get discouraged, but you've just described. A scenario where.
Advocacy kind of kept… moving incrementally forward for more than 10 years, yeah, to get here?
Susanna Laurin: Yeah, and actually longer than that, because before this all happened, we tried… we all, many, tried to get an anti-discrimination act together for the EU, and that failed in 2008, and that was when we were very discouraged, and then it kind of started again with this more, kind of.
Yeah, yeah.
Smaller bits and pieces, maybe, packages. And really, many advocates are… frustrated or disappointed that the Accessibility Act doesn't cover the built environment, for example.
It's an opt-in, opt-out for the member states to add the built environment, but.
I really would like to see this as a glass half full, because it's… it's… is a very ambitious legislation, and what people tend to forget is that it's not only certain products and services in Europe, so this is a European thing, why would we care?
But it's actually… it doesn't matter where the economic operator offering this product to consumers is headquartered.
If they want to sell to the EU, they are covered by this legislation. So it's very, very ambitious, and I've never seen anything similar to that anywhere else.
So I think we should be quite proud of what we have achieved, even if it's not.
You know, covering everything, and absolutely not perfect. That's never gonna happen.
Um, but definitely, I mean, from an advocacy point of view.
There are many strong people, of course, who have been important, but I would like to highlight the European Disability Forum.
Which is the umbrella organization for all the disabled persons organizations in the Member States, and they are working very strongly on the policy side.
And kind of getting into the Parliament and the Members of Parliament, and really.
You know, working together with them, not only being kind of revolutionary and standing on the streets with signs, they do that as well. They really try to understand the bureaucracy and understand how policy works, and I think that is very, very important.
And when the web accessibility directive. Was transposed during the whole negotiation phase. I led an expert group where we were expert, but also people with disabilities in that whole expert group, and I think.
That is important to me, at least. That's one of the signs of, kind of, progress, or something that has been a success for us.
Is to say that it's not the advocacy people are here and the experts are here, but we work together. So it doesn't matter if an expert has a disability or not, and it doesn't.
Matter if the person with a disability has super good technical knowledge or not, we need both sides, and we are… we are experts, but maybe in different, you know, roles and so on, but we need to work together, and I think that is really.
A key factor. Understanding the policy. Understanding how lobbyism works, and having the… the, um… patients to… to get, you know, resilience to… keep going, because it does take time, and I wouldn't say that it's kind of bureaucracy… My impression is not that anyone wanted to stop this, it's just that it takes time. We are 27 member states, we need to work together, we need to negotiate. Some of them have more money than others, some are more technically advanced, some are more.
Ict mature than others, and disability legislation differs between the countries, and it takes time.
To make decisions, and really, that's kind of democracy, and… You know, standards take time, legislation takes time, and I think there has been a strong will of.
Succeeding in something, uh, the whole time. So, it's not like it has been a super fight. It's more like a… A long dialogue, I would say.
Sharron Rush: Uh-huh, yeah, that's… well, that's a good thing for us to remember, too, because right now.
The United States is so polarized, and those kinds of dialogues and conversations and exchanges.
Are fraught. They're more difficult, I think, than they've ever been, at least in my lifetime, in terms of.
Of actually being able to hear each other, so that's a good point about negotiation. I know that.
Earlier, before, when we were chatting, before we got this started, you said, um.
You said that for years in Europe. You look to the United States and the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the.
Sort of proactive and leadership. In… in disability rights and in accessibility.
And now that we've seemed to have. Retreated from that.
That, uh, we're… we… can take… we in the United States, who still care about this so much.
Can take some, uh, some… um, hope, I guess.
From the fact that the European Union has now taken this up and is providing that global leadership.
At a time when… when we, all of us who are advocates wherever we live.
Really need something like that. So, um… I just… I mean, the advocacy part of all of this is something that is just really fascinated me, and.
And inspired, and like I said. Given me hope, so I… I'm sure that you had… when you said.
Uh, yeah, there were times where you were feeling kind of discouraged, too, and that resilience is really important. Do you have any.
Kind of guidance about how you can foster that sense of resilience when, uh.
When you're in the ditch like we are now.
Susanna Laurin: I… I don't think I can… help the U.S. I love the US, beautiful country, fantastic people, and I just hope you.
Wake up one day and this is all gone. I don't think I have the knowledge on how to solve that all, but we… I think one thing that really… turn the… turn this… this whole thing into a success factor was something that is… that many people don't know about, but…
But this started out as an initiative from kind of the social policy side, from inclusion and, you know, civil rights and all of that.
It still is, but if you read both of those, uh, directives.
Both the Web Accessibility Directive and the European Accessibility Act, it's very clear that the focus here, and kind of the focal point, is the inner market, or internal market, of the EU.
So, the whole logic of this, to make it, to get it through and make everyone think it's a good idea, we kind of changed from, this is for people with disabilities into.
Ah, yes, yes, yes.
This is for businesses, making better business between, you know, within the market. Because now with a fragmented market, it's so difficult to buy things. And if we are ever going to beat the US when it comes to technology, we need to be stronger, and that means that we need to foster more innovation and cross-border sales.
So, both of these directives are. I mean, if you look at it from the kind of how the EU is divided in different units and so on.
It's not about social inclusion anymore, it's really internal market directives, both of them.
So it's the… the… kind of the logic behind is economy.
Sharron Rush: That's very brilliant. That's quite brilliant, because. For years, you know, for, um… About 10 years, I was co-chair of the Education and Outreach Working Group at the Web Accessibility Initiative of the W3C, and.
One of the papers I authored was to build a business case for accessibility, and the fact that.
Um, you have, uh, access to the larger markets. You have a better brand, you have… you're identified with.
Uh, inclusion and progressive… thinking and innovation, and that as you build accessibility in your products.
Have, um, unanticipated benefits in terms of being more readily able to, uh.
To serve more people, and I think with this codification at the EU.
That kind of reinforces the business case in a really important way. I love that you made the point.
Even if you're an American company, if you want to do business in the EU, you do have to.
Start paying attention to that. So, in the U.S, we kind of have this understanding, because of Section 508 and some other, um.
Some other kind of state level. Here, I live in Texas, and our state-level accessibility guidelines are all based on WCIC.
So, is it safe, then, for… American businesses to think, okay, well, if I get a WCAG audit, and I get a VPAT.
And I'm… I can pass WCAG. Is that good? Does that meet the requirements of the… EAA.
Susanna Laurin: It's a very good start, but the European legislation always points to European standards.
So that is where the EM301549, very long standard, comes in, and that is an ICT standard, so it's not only for web, it's for hardware and software and web and apps and so on.
Luckily enough, it's harmonized with WCAG, so WCAG is kind of part of the EN301, but already today.
There are more than 60 additional requirements for the web accessibility directive that are beyond… goes beyond WCAG, or are not in WCAG, they're not based on WCAG.
It doesn't say that they go beyond in a way that it's AAA or something, but it's not connecting to WCAG.
So, you need to actually understand the European standard to be able to meet the requirements of.
Either of those, uh, European laws. And to go with the… with the European Accessibility Act is not only the EN301549, which is kind of my baby, so I always want it to be mentioned, and I think it's kind of the mothership, some people call it. But we also have other standards in the mandate, which is what the Commission.
They mandate the European Standardization Organizations to. To create new or update existing standards to support the legislation.
So it's the EM301549 for, kind of, general ICT, and then it's a very interesting standard that is much less known.
Which is called EN17161. It's on Design for All.
So, this is a procedural standard supporting organizations who would like to achieve accessibility through a design-for-all process.
So it's supporting the production phase or design phase and everything, with procedural.
Tips and tricks on how to, uh, how to design and develop products and services to.
Achieve accessibility as an end goal. So that's a very… we are updating that standard as well. And then there is a EN17120.
Which is on the built environment, because, as I mentioned, there is an opt-in possibility for member states to also include the built environment when they implement the Act.
So we're also updating this built environment standard, which has so far been.
Uh, with no measurements, it has only been, kind of, do this, do that, this is important, and for this reason, and so on, but no specific measurements. And now we're adding that, so there will be.
Easier ways of understanding if you comply or not. So, and then there, we are creating a new.
Standard on support services, because support services also need to be accessible on non-digital information, because the EAA also covers the package and the, you know.
The product information and instructions and so on. And then on emergency services, because that's one of the things that the Act covers, is emergency communication.
Sharron Rush: Oh, and that's so critical. Yeah.
Susanna Laurin: Which is… yeah. And still very… that is still very fragmented. We have… two or three countries that do it really well.
Real-time text and very accessible emergency, but… The majority of the countries are still lagging behind a lot, so that is one of the.
Really good things, I think, with this legislation, when that there's a grace period to 2027 for that to be applicable, but still, that will be a big change, specifically for.
Deaf and hard of hearing.
Sharron Rush: So… so given that, um. All these guidelines are provided, and it sounds like procedures, tips and tricks, you called them.
Um. What do you think is the impact, then, for businesses to be able to integrate this into their.
You know, rather than thinking of accessibility as something you do every once in a while, it's done, you get a VPAT here in the US.
It's a done deal. Um… Is the… is the goal, then, for these.
Uh, tips and tricks and procedures that are built into these EN regulations.
Are those going to be something that businesses can then just.
Fold into their processes, or how will that work?
Susanna Laurin: Yeah, so… so just… now you said EN regulations, and I need to kind of, uh, so the standard.
Sharron Rush: Well, that's how I understood it. Okay, okay.
Susanna Laurin: Yeah, the standards are voluntary. The legal requirements are in the directives, and then to support the technical specifications, we provide standards.
The only reasonable way of complying is, of course, to meet the standards, because then you know that's presumed conformance, it's called, in the EU lingo. That means that if I meet the requirements of the.
The technical specifications in the standard, then I can be pretty sure that I will also pass, from a legal standpoint.
But you don't have to. There is a room for innovation here, which is also important from the European Commission's point of view, to foster innovation.
And that means that if you have another way of meeting the requirements of the legislation, then what we have.
In the technical specifications, you're welcome to do it, but then you have to prove.
That it meets the requirements of the goal. So, not everyone is doing that, but.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's just… Yeah.
Sharron Rush: Well, and that's similar to WCAG that way, too, that they have their techniques documents, but if you can.
Prove that you can meet the standard some other way. That's fine, because the end goal, right, is the experience of… people with disabilities. What's the role of, um.
Yeah. Yeah.
My understanding is that this. The EAA has a much more, um, explicit requirement.
For user testing, that you have to… you have to actually demonstrate.
The use case of… No, that's not… that's not the case.
Susanna Laurin: No, I wish… I wish it had, but no, it doesn't.
But you talked about the impact on industry and companies. So, if you… you need… so, one smart thing with this legislation, it is covered the whole distribution chain.
So it doesn't matter if you're a manufacturer, an authorized representative, an importer, a distributor, or a provider of a service.
Then you are still covered. And then these different, um… stakeholders have slightly.
Kind of the responsibilities are cut and sliced in different ways.
Oh, well…
But you're all responsible, you can't say, no, no, I'm just the importer, I don't, you know, that's not possible. So, that is quite a clear… path, I think. Uh, and then… If you are there in each of the member states, there are national competent authorities, so market surveillance authorities and competent authorities, who are going to monitor.
All the economic operators that are covered by this legislation, and they have a proactive approach to this, so they will monitor just.
When they, I don't know if they, you know, pick and choose, or the biggest ones, or how they do this, that they are doing, and then, of course, they also take in complaints from end users. So any consumer.
Can complain and say, hey, this product or this service doesn't meet the requirements of the Act, and then the national.
Competent authority needs to make an assessment whether that is correct or not.
Oh, uh-huh.
So… so that is… and that, I think, is a big difference between how we do this and how the US do accessibility legislation, because we have this proactive thing, and we have the monitoring, and that's the same with the Web Accessibility Directive, also have yearly monitoring.
Of the websites and apps. So… So you can't just kind of sit in a corner and pretend that this doesn't apply to you.
Because when somebody either is complaining, or the market surveillance authority kind of gets to you, then, of course, you will have a certain… you will be allowed a certain time to remediate.
Yeah, you know? But you have to… collaborate with the competent authority. That's in the law. You can't say, I don't want to do this, or we don't… we don't have people with disabilities as our client, that's not… no.
Sharron Rush: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's… and people do that here. They say that, and… and unfortunately.
You have to.
Yeah.
I think in the U.S, the way… The enforcement mechanism is lawsuits, and going to court, and… That is… I mean, what you just said about you can't just sit in the corner, a lot of people sit in the corner and hope they don't get sued.
Yeah. Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, rather than have that sort of regulatory monitoring function, which would be… Well, it would be more fair, right, that everybody's subject to the same… because what happens in the U.S, it kind of depends what court you.
File your suit in, and who's the judge, and how they interpret the ADA, and those kinds of.
Yeah.
Of things rather than a nonpartisan regulatory board that is using a commonly agreed on standard, so… That does… that makes a whole lot of sense. And the fact that.
That… disabled customers can file.
Susanna Laurin: Yep. Free of charge, you don't need any lawyers, you just say, I can't use this.
A complaint and have it… They can…
Full stop, then that's… so that is kind of the easy way, and then the competent authority can… so if the company, or the organization.
Doesn't remediate or don't want to collaborate, or don't list, or try to hide, or something, then… then there is a possibility.
For a penalty. So they can be fined. But the idea is that the… is not to get money from them, because these are public sector authorities, they're not lawyers who want to earn money, these are public sector authorities, they are not policing you, they are the firefighters, and they're really there to help. I mean, it sounds like a…
Yeah.
Fishy, wishy-washy thing, but that's the… they're… Their assignment is to make sure that products and services are accessible, not to put penalties on companies. But there are quite strong.
Right.
Possibilities for penalties, and in some countries, even in the law, that is a possibility to go to jail.
If you don't meet the requirement. Who is going to jail if it's the CEO or something? I want… I want to see that happen first, but.
Oh, my.
But that's… but I think the strongest, uh, kind of stick in this legislation is that if a product or service is not compliant.
The competent authorities can decide to withdraw from the product or service from the market.
That is a strong argument. Yeah.
Sharron Rush: That is a very strong argument. So, what would happen. And we hear this a lot.
Where, you know, someone has had an audit or a review, and they're trying to get a VPAT written.
And they say, but that widget isn't ours. We… it's a third party. We didn't make this.
Hmm.
It's on our website, but we didn't make it. We… it's a, uh, you know, it's a… learning management system, or it's a… it's something else that… that we have… embedded in our website, but it's a third-party application. Is there a…
What would you call it, an exception for businesses who… no.
Susanna Laurin: No, if you… if you paid for it, and you… or you got it, I mean, you're still responsible for your website or product or whatever.
Uh, so if you add something that makes it inaccessible, it's still your responsibility. It doesn't… you don't have to develop everything or design everything yourself. I mean, it's… a product and even a website these days.
Has, I don't know, hundreds or thousands of components from all over, but if you are the… manufacturer or the provider of this to the clients, then you still need to make sure that it is accessible and that it remains accessible.
So, you can't say third-party. You still, you still choose to have that third-party thing on your product or service, and that means that you are not complying to the law.
Sharron Rush: I think that clarity is really useful for businesses to have that clarity. I… I think sometimes the ambiguity.
Yeah.
Of accessibility interpretations in the U.S. Is one of the things that causes.
So much deer-in-the-headlights kind of, oh, accessibility is such a headache, because there's a lot of ambiguity, and it sounds like.
Yeah, yeah.
This, uh, the EAA is pretty darn clear about what is.
Except it.
Susanna Laurin: I would say it is, yes, yeah. And the only exception is third-party content, so if you have a website forum, then in your clients or somebody else's.
Publishing things there, then you cannot take responsibility for what they are publishing, so… That is third-party content.
You know?
Sharron Rush: Right, right, right. So, as an advocate, I'm going to ask one more question, and then I'm going to… I think we've got some things coming in through chat, and we've got some questions from the group, but… As an advocate.
We've talked about the impact on business. What about the impact for people with disabilities? Is this… has this created.
Greater access to… to what? Jobs? Employment? Education? Consumer, civic activities? What… What is the impact for the population of people with disabilities?
Susanna Laurin: Well, we are one month after it applied, so I don't think that we kind of woke up on the 29th. Oh, the world is completely different.
Sharron Rush: Ah, yeah, yeah, okay, okay, fair enough.
Susanna Laurin: But… but I… I'm quite sure… I mean, we can see if we… if we, uh, compare to what happened when the web accessibility directive entered into force, uh, we were… a lot of people who were.
Talking about that legislation for a long time, and we were kind of tired of saying the same things, and then when it applied to everyone, then public sector woke up and said, oh, why didn't anyone tell me about that? So it took a while for them to, you know.
But now we really see an increase, and that is monitored at national level and reported to the Commission, and I was part of the.
Of the group that… or I led the group that, that, uh, did the first.
Review of the law, because after a law has been in place for a couple of years, then the Commission makes a review of it to see, does it work? Do we have to change anything?
And we can really see that the increase of accessibility is on the rise in the public sector website. So it does work.
From the WebEx… from the European Accessibility Act, we will have to come back in a year or two to see that in real numbers.
But I am quite confident that it will make life much better for people with disabilities and other consumers in the EU.
That's right, that's right.
Because… because what I've seen in these years. Are… is that, um… economic operators that are kind of handling, and it's not only for commercial or private sector, it could also be not-for-profit or… or public sector, but everyone that is in scope of the European Accessibility Act, they woke up much earlier.
Compared to the public sector when it came to the Web Accessibility Directive.
There's a difference. The large companies are more prepared than the smaller ones, absolutely, and there are also differences between sectors, and there are differences between countries.
Fair enough. But I see a lot more attention, and I've been doing hundreds of webinars and trainings, and we see.
All around the accessibility world with research, with experts, with advocacy, with… new companies popping up with accessibility expertise, because the demand is so much on the rise. So anyone who wants to work in Europe, please come, we need more and more boats on the ground here. But we see that a lot, so the market is completely changing, and I think that means that.
That companies do prepare for this, and they are aware it will take time. We need patience, always, but I'm quite sure that we will see a difference.
Employment… this is a consumer-facing law, so it doesn't really affect employment, but, of course, a lot of.
Expert companies, or monitoring agencies and so on, they will need people with lived experience from inaccessibility to do their monitoring and auditing. So, of course, that will open.
Job opportunities kind of indirectly for people with disabilities, and I think that goes for both.
Large organizations in scope, and also the monitoring agencies, and the accessibility expert companies. So I think this does open.
Open doors for… for people with disabilities.
Sharron Rush: Well, and one of the… one of the things we've heard for years and years from people with disabilities is that.
All these employment applications have moved online, and the application process itself is not accessible.
Yeah.
So, given that, I think there's an open door. Just a very, very… plain and simple, open door, because now the application process itself will be.
More accessible. Susanna, this has just been a great conversation. I appreciate your, uh.
Your time. I'm gonna see if… Mark, do we have any questions from the audience?
From the attendees. Or, uh…
Mark Boyden: We do. We do. And just to remind you, you can put your questions into the Q&A. I'm also monitoring the chat as well.
And, um, let's see… one question was, is there a spreadsheet or something comparing WCAG and EN301549?
So that we Americans can easily figure out what those additional standards are.
Susanna Laurin: Uh, yes and no. Uh, there is… we have done a spreadsheet for the current version of the standard, but all the standards are currently under review and will be published here starting in the autumn, and then going into next year, so… what the exact, um… the detailed requirements for the Accessibility Act, that is not yet published.
Uh, so it's now under, kind of, a voting process and so on. It takes time with standards.
Uh, so I can't provide the EAA-specific ones, but I am happy to provide you. Do you send out.
We'd… absolutely.
Yes, yes, we do.
Something afterwards, so, like, can I add… can I… Yeah. So I can… because I don't have the link at the top of my head, but I can definitely provide it afterwards, so you can get that in your email.
In your thank you email. Thank you, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Sharron Rush: Great! Okay, we'll send that out with the notes, yeah.
Mark Boyden: Yeah, we do record this and make sure that everybody gets to it, so we'll… We can include that information from you. Thank you.
Sharron Rush: And I have some… I have some other follow-ups that I was gonna include when we send the recording, so we'll send that link when you get it to us, that's great.
Mark Boyden: And another one here, uh, Susanna mentioned that consumers can file a complaint to the authority.
But also, there's a requirement that businesses post an accessibility statement with a way to.
Directly contact the businesses, right? Will the authority verify that the consumer has contacted the business first to try to get satisfaction.
Or is that not even necessarily an expectation. Can consumers skip talking to the business directly and just go through the authority?
Or is the expectation they'll talk to the business first?
Yes, I agree.
Susanna Laurin: That's more than one question. Uh, I think this is… this is, uh… I think this is a mix-up of the requirements for the Web Accessibility Directive and the EAA. So… The web accessibility statement and the feedback mechanism is part of the Web Accessibility Directive, so all public sector websites and apps have to have a feedback mechanism, and there.
The end user is expected to first do this, like, a bilateral, hey, your website sucks, help me, and then the public sector body has two weeks to respond, and then to fix it, and if that doesn't happen, or if the end user is not happy with it, then they can go to the monitoring agency.
But that's for the Web Accessibility Directive. When the European Accessibility Act, there's nothing called an accessibility statement.
But there is mentioning of an information on the assessment of the level of accessibility, which, of course, is kind of a statement, but the word accessibility statement is not in the Act. That's very interesting.
And also, there is no requirement of a feedback mechanism. Of course, I would strongly recommend everyone to have a feedback mechanism, but it's not actually legally required.
So, to answer your question, the consumer is… I mean, the… process that is foreseen is that the consumer goes to the surveillance market surveillance authority in their country.
And say, this product or service has a problem. Do something. And then the market surveillance authority.
Hopefully does something, and then, of course, the consumer can also go directly to court if they.
Prefer, but the idea of the process of this legislation and enforcement is that the… market surveillance Authority is kind of handling the complaints. So that is… and all the… national market surveillance authorities have, or… I shouldn't say all, but everyone that I've seen so far have very good feedback mechanisms on their websites. So, you need to know.
Where the authorities, what is the authority in my country, or which ones, because in some of the larger ones, we have more than one authority.
Um, and then you file your complaint to them. I think that was all the questions.
Mark Boyden: Yeah, I think, uh, you covered it, Susanna. Um, are there resources for people who want to get started in advance in accessibility in Europe? For example, is there any accessibility-specific education one could take somewhere?
Susanna Laurin: Hmm, uh, well, too few, I would say. There are a handful of universities that have accessibility-related courses, um.
I know of a Swedish one that is free of charge and online, so that one in the mid.
Mid-Sweden University has a very popular one. It's the one, um, kind of two-semester, um, additional one in the Oslo.
University of Norway, they have a master's education, master's degree education for universal design.
That's a misleading, because they call everything universal design, so it's mostly accessibility, but anyway.
So, um… and then we also have good… there are a couple in Stuttgart, in the Stuttgart University, that's more, kind of, heavily on technology, so more assistive technology and kind of the technical parts of accessibility, and in the Netherlands, there is also.
A couple who do good things, I can, uh, I can also include that if Sharon.
Reminds me, uh, a list of the universities that I know. That doesn't mean that that's an extensive list, but, I mean, that's… yeah.
Sharron Rush: Yeah, yeah, I will, and… and so our… our… Do you think any of those courses are available, like, remotely, that people could take?
The ones I know.
Yes. Okay.
Susanna Laurin: Yes, several of them are, I know, yes, yeah.
As a follow-up, it was asked if we could post those links in the follow-up email later.
Sharron Rush: We will, yes.
Mark Boyden: All right. Uh, as a reminder, too, um, you can put questions in the Q&A if you'd like to ask live, just raise your hand using the React feature at the bottom of your screen, and we will ask to unmute and let you ask live.
Next question. I'm curious why, if the EAA was meant to clarify the standards.
Why do countries like France and Italy have different requirements around the accessibility statement information needed?
Susanna Laurin: Well, when it comes to France, the response is always, if it's not invented in France, then they don't care about it.
So, um, France is a little bit of the black box of the EU, but, uh, so these… both these legislations that we have talked about today are directives, and there's different kinds of laws in the EU. Many may have talked.
Heard about the GDPR. That's a regulation, and when the EU does a regulation, it's a one-size-fits-all, everything is exactly the same in all countries at the same time, and it's just… Boom, this is the way it is.
Directives, on the other hand, are kind of overarching, umbrella legislation, if you will.
And then each member state has to transpose or implement this.
To the best of their knowledge. So, they can add things.
And they can go beyond the minimum requirements, and they can add… they can make additional scope.
For example, in… when the Web Accessibility Directive entered into force, Finland added banks. They thought public sector banks, same, same, we add the banks for this. In Germany, they added in some of the Bundeslander, some of the.
Regions of Germany, they added, uh, sign language and easy to read, because they thought that should be part of accessibility requirements. So there are ways of, of… doing… you can't do less than what the directive says, but you are welcome to do more.
So that's the reason why the laws that. Transposes or implements the Accessibility Act may differ slightly.
Uh, in different member states.
Okay, that's all we have at the moment.
But, sorry, but the standards, the requirements are the same. So, the implementation when it comes to scope and, you know, who is covered, what is covered, how do we enforce it, how large are the penalties, are we sending people to jail or not?
That's a national decision, but the accessibility requirements, the standards, you know, the technical specifications and the actual requirements, those are the same.
Over the… you can't say, no, we don't like. Contrast requirements, we skip that. That's not… or we do another contrast requirement, that is not allowed. So, the standards are the same.
But the way it is enforced, and a little bit about the scope and so on, there's this… a little bit of a flexibility.
And people… some people say that's negative, and I understand that from an industry point of view, it's much easier if everything is exactly the same.
But having worked with policy and legislation in the EU for many, many years, I can say.
It's very, very good, because the countries have… they are… I mean, we have Malta, Luxembourg, super small countries, or really big countries like Germany and Italy.
And they do things differently. They have different traditions, they have different… I mean, the context is different.
The ways things are implemented are different, and also some of the assistive technology provisions differ between the.
So, the flexibility is not only negative. Language is, I mean, just… yeah.
Sharron Rush: Yeah, yeah. Yep, that does make sense. Yeah, yeah.
Well, thanks, everyone, for these questions, and before we wrap up.
I would, uh, like to say hi to Francis West. I see Francis is attending here, and she used to be… she is a former board member of Knowbility, so… Thanks for joining us today, Francis, and uh… I agree with the comments coming in. This was so good, uh, Susanna, thank you for.
Helping us understand and. Set expectations for, uh.
For doing business in the EU, which I think there are many, many, many.
American businesses for whom that's really going to be important. So, uh, Mark, I'll turn it back to you to wrap us up, and Susanna, thanks again.
Mark Boyden: Oh, thanks again for everybody being here. I will let you know that we will make the recording available along with the transcript, and we will follow up with the promised information.
I just wanted to let you know about our current program. This is actually how I got involved with Knowbility at first, was through the accessibility internet rally.
Uh, 20 years ago, I was, uh, learning how to become a… or make my websites accessible.
That I was building, working in an agency. So we had an annual web accessibility hackathon, where we… bring in individual or teams of web developers who want to learn how to build accessible websites.
And we pair them up with non-profit organizations to build a website for the nonprofit organization. So we're looking for people.
Of this type, um, organizations and developers. And, uh, it's a very, very affordable program. The registration deadline is coming up September 13th.
I encourage everybody to take a look at this program. What it is, is it's an eight… weak accessibility hackathon, or training competition.
The people on the development side are. Paired up with a mentor, and for their team to help, uh.
Learn the accessibility. We give training to the teams, too. Expert training on accessibility for the websites, and then we turn you loose for 8 weeks to.
Build a website for a nonprofit, and then we judge the websites and provide feedback about that, and the winners will get tickets to next year's AccessU conference.
Which are worth about $900 a piece. And to get more information, Knowbility.org slash air.
And before you leave today, um… Well, so you can also, um, subscribe to our, uh, newsletter, follow us on social media.
Email us at events at Knowbility.org. And finally, if you would give us some feedback on this.
Today's event, we would greatly appreciate it. There's a… QR code on the screen, or you can go to Knowbility.org slash badasurvey. That's B-A-D-A survey.
We appreciate it. We'll see you next time. We've got a new one coming up next month, and we'll have those details out soon.
Susanna Laurin: Thank you, everyone. Bye-bye.
Mark Boyden: Thank you, everyone.